It IS all about the bike: CCS 2014

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Re: It IS all about the bike: CCS 2014

Postby IanM » 05 Sep 2014 15:46

RE Stages - before you buy, try and have a go on something that measures L/R power like a WattBike or something with Vectors. As I understand it (having read up on it, talked to people about it, etc) Stages is great if your L/R balance is close, always within a few percent regardless of effort level. It's less great for people where the L/R balance is off when bimbling along but evens up under load, or vice versa, it's fairly even until there's a lot of load being applied at which point one leg becomes dominant. Because you're getting power from one side, for these cases it's not a fair representation of the actual overall effort you're putting in - especially if your dominant side is your right leg. That's not to say you wouldn't get value from training with power from one side, but target power for intervals might be off because the leg being measured might be putting out different power to the other so you might not be getting the full intended training effect from a given session.

I'm not sure that's a great description... definitely worth talking to MtB about it though.

One other option - Garmin have just announced the Vector S - single sided Vector for slightly more than Stages which can be upgraded to dual sided by purchasing the extra pedal. Helps spread the cost if you do it that way, although if your L/R balance is not even, then it might render historical data that you collect from a single side as misleading.

Having said all that, if you can verify that your L/R balance is very close, then Stages or Vector S represents a brilliant low(er) cost approach to training with power.
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Re: It IS all about the bike: CCS 2014

Postby jonathon.e » 05 Sep 2014 16:28

There is this, cheaper but obviously the accuracy is less
http://www.powertap.com/collections/pow ... s/powercal
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Re: It IS all about the bike: CCS 2014

Postby kfjatek » 05 Sep 2014 16:56

IanM wrote:RE Stages - before you buy, try and have a go on something that measures L/R power like a WattBike or something with Vectors. As I understand it (having read up on it, talked to people about it, etc) Stages is great if your L/R balance is close, always within a few percent regardless of effort level. It's less great for people where the L/R balance is off when bimbling along but evens up under load, or vice versa, it's fairly even until there's a lot of load being applied at which point one leg becomes dominant. Because you're getting power from one side, for these cases it's not a fair representation of the actual overall effort you're putting in - especially if your dominant side is your right leg. That's not to say you wouldn't get value from training with power from one side, but target power for intervals might be off because the leg being measured might be putting out different power to the other so you might not be getting the full intended training effect from a given session.


So, I had a bit of a think about this and I kind of disagree here. I know what you mean in terms of varying power balance for different effort levels, but then I don't think the imbalance will ever be significant enough to "properly" make a difference. Especially that majority of the work we do (unless you're an extreme grinder, cruising at 30-40rpm, with massive L/R imbalance) is at high cadence, so lower power output per stroke, which pulls this potential difference even lower (not sure if you're following me). So the key point here is that you get consistency of measurement for your own effort levels - which I think Stages does provide. I have a sneaky feeling much of the L/R foot "bad press" that it's been getting is down to the fact that it's a clear market disruptor for the traditional power meter providers - easier to use, cheaper, etc.

I'm thinking of acquiring one too, btw (harmonising groupsets on my TT & roadie as we speak to make sure I can transfer it as needed) - but will probably wait another couple of months to see if there's a reactive price drop following the recent "budget" power meter announcements (Vector S, PowerBeat, etc.).

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Re: It IS all about the bike: CCS 2014

Postby IanM » 05 Sep 2014 17:19

kfjatek wrote:So the key point here is that you get consistency of measurement for your own effort levels - which I think Stages does provide.


You're absolutely right, it should provide consistency of measurement. Which is useful if all you're doing is collecting data. If you're trying to act on it with key training sessions, then it's a different matter.

To explain it with an example, Rider A has an even L/R balance up to and around FTP. But over and above that, the left leg becomes massively dominant - 60:40, say. The training program calls for intervals done at, for example, 140% of FTP. Short intervals, obviously ;). So Rider A goes off and does them, hitting the numbers comfortably, and goes away a happy bunny. However, the physiological training effect from the session isn't as high as intended because the numbers were skewed upwards because of the imbalance, whereas the average of both left and right side would have shown that the rider wasn't hitting the intended targets - in effect, the session was too easy. Yes, there will be a training effect, but are you getting value for your training (especially if you're paying for a coach). You might have a rest day the next day because the effort was supposed to be high, but in reality you could have gone out and done another session the next day. If you're going to be paying decent money for something to help your training, you should be confident that you're going to get decent value from it and it's allowing you to train to your potential. If you're going to spend money on a power meter, then it's a serious investment, so you should want to do more with it than look at lots of pretty graphs ;) Like I said, if you can be confident that your L/R balance is consistently close, then Stages or Vector S represents the best balance of cost/usability - I'd rather have that than a PowerTap so I can use race and training wheels with it.

I know for a fact that I'm right side dominant, but I don't know if that's all of the time, or some of the time, and if the latter, if it's under high load or not. In theory, if I use something that measures L/R power I can work to improve my weaker side and measure the improvements.
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Re: It IS all about the bike: CCS 2014

Postby kfjatek » 06 Sep 2014 00:38

Hmmm but if you test yourself regularly (as you should in when doing a decent block of training), the numbers should pick up next time, no? What you're assuming here is that increase in power output from one of your legs at some point basically stops, which isn't the case. Plus there are always additional auxiliary metrics that you can analyse together with power to learn the whole picture and fish out irregularities, e.g. HR or RPE.

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Re: It IS all about the bike: CCS 2014

Postby IanM » 06 Sep 2014 06:58

kfjatek wrote:Hmmm but if you test yourself regularly (as you should in when doing a decent block of training), the numbers should pick up next time, no?


Absolutely. As I said above, you still get a training effect which leads to an increase in power. Just, perhaps, not the optimal increase for the session and program.

kfjatek wrote:What you're assuming here is that increase in power output from one of your legs at some point basically stops, which isn't the case.


I'm not sure if you mean your weaker leg stops improving over time, or it stops putting out more power as the other leg ramps up during an effort. Neither of those is what I was thinking ;)

kfjatek wrote:Plus there are always additional auxiliary metrics that you can analyse together with power to learn the whole picture and fish out irregularities, e.g. HR or RPE.


Of course there is. But you can also get fitter by just getting out there and PLF without a PM. The point of getting a power meter is to do more targeted sessions to get faster, quicker. So if the data coming back doesn't give you the full picture, then you're not able to make the most of it.

As above, get yourself checked on a Wattbike or similar. If your balance is consistent, then this doesn't matter and Stages or Vector S is the way to go. If there is an imbalance (and very possibly a dynamic one), then I strongly believe that you wouldn't get the most out of your investment with single sided power measurement. Yes, you'll still see improvements, but you very possibly won't be improving as quickly as you potentially could.
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Re: It IS all about the bike: CCS 2014

Postby Jack Hughes » 06 Sep 2014 07:40

The vector S is far more appealing. Simply for the upgradability. And a bit easier to swap. Although have a decent torq wrench is a good thing.

Aesthetically, I have an issue with measuring power at just one cylinder.

What I found/have found is that power is a nice to have:

I have to little time, and it is too sporadic.
Which meant that my simple plans are further simplified
Which means I am left with intervals that are effectively max power.
So a PM would only measure progress.
Turbo pseudo power is probably good enough for that together with frequent TTs on the same course (which I don't do).


What I probably ought to do is get the power tap serviced and swapped to a shimano hub. As power would be useful for race analysis. The problem is that I would probably want a disc wheel at some point... Which makes putting the powertap on that problematic. Unless I go down the covers option.

It's all very frustrating.
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Re: It IS all about the bike: CCS 2014

Postby IanM » 06 Sep 2014 09:10

Jack Hughes wrote:The vector S is far more appealing. Simply for the upgradability. And a bit easier to swap. Although have a decent torq wrench is a good thing.


I'd argue that Stages is probably easier to swap, as you don't have to worry about positioning pods. Although with Vector you don't have to worry about whether it matches your groupsets... ah ;)

Jack Hughes wrote:So a PM would only measure progress.


Yep, and for that it's very useful. But as a blunt tool you could do as you say and regularly TT on the same course, if feasible. You'd have to take fatigue and weather conditions into account when looking at your times, but it's much cheaper to do it that way than getting a PM.

I'd say it took me almost 18 months of PM ownership to truly understand why I can benefit from it, and I'm still learning about how to reap those benefits, and suspect I will be for a long time to come.

Jack Hughes wrote: The problem is that I would probably want a disc wheel at some point... Which makes putting the powertap on that problematic. Unless I go down the covers option.


The cover option's served me extremely well this year. My reasons for wanting to move on are 1) no faffing about with taking covers on/off OR just leaving them on and risking damaging them, 2) being able to buy a lighter disc wheel to help improve my TT times (although you could do this by putting the PT into a lighter wheel to start with, and using covers - still getting most of the benefits of a light disc), and 3) addressing imbalances. Oh, and 4) not having to deal with sending it off to Paligap for servicing.
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It IS all about the bike: CCS 2014

Postby Tritans » 06 Sep 2014 09:31

Hold on I thought power was the great panacea because it is absolute. Doing a TT on the same course is about as far from absolute as you can get.

Of the benefits I can see, reviewing performance ( like doing regular TT's on the same course for example ) us pretty high on the list, but like Jack, frustrated I can't get a one size fits all solution.


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Re: It IS all about the bike: CCS 2014

Postby IanM » 06 Sep 2014 11:03

But single side power's not absolute if it can't be cleanly extrapolated to both sides.

Performance review is an important part of a PM but to me it's probably not as important as being able to train at the right intensity. My point about using TTs being a cheaper blunt tool was because you should see a trend over time which would point to performance improvement or lack thereof.

I'll try and put together a more in depth post about my thoughts on training with power and the potential PM benefits (of which there are many) over the weekend.
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